kai ([info]kaiz) wrote,
@ 2003-08-15 23:40:00
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Calling All Random Access Writers!!!!
This evening, I was chatting with the lovely and wonderful [info]luthien about writing styles and we both discovered that we're among the few, the proud, the brave writers who don't write stories linearly. Instead, we skip around within the text, writing whatever scene calls most strongly to us at the time and later, when the story is complete, we "smooth things out" and make the story fit together seamlessly or ditch scenes here or there to make the story work. Hence my description of us as Random Access Writers. ::g::

Now, I know most writers don't write this way. But, I'd like to hear from all of you who do!

Why do you do it? What do you like best about doing it? Have you tried the linear style? (I have and it just doesn't work for me) What have you noticed are the pitfalls? The perils? The pleasures? Do you use "place holders" like me, when you can't figure out how you want to say something but you know you've just got to move on in the text?

Come on fellow RAW folks, drop by and share your thoughts! I'd really love to hear from you. Hell, we could form a support community or something if we get enough interest.

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[info]salazaar
2003-08-15 08:48 pm UTC (link)
*delurks*

Hi, my name is S, and I'm a Random Access Writer. It's been 2 days since my last my burst of non-linear writing.

*sits down nervously*

The hardest thing, I think, is just admitting it.

*relurks*

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[info]kaiz
2003-08-15 09:33 pm UTC (link)
Welcome, salazaar!

So, do stories come to you in scenes? Do you write out those scenes first, then connect them up, so to speak, with other text? Do you do outlines? I know that linear writers often do these complicated outlines--I could never quite get the hang of that! ::g::

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[info]salazaar
2003-08-15 09:53 pm UTC (link)
hmmm ... well usually a story starts with just a vague idea in my head -- a character suddenly starts speaking so i start writing what he says to me, in a sloppy and haphazard way. very abbreviated, with occasional chunks of prose when i feel inspired.

i keep writing these fragments until i have a vague sense of what the character is trying to tell me and what is going to happen. and, most importantly, the emotional arc of the story. in other words, i don't ever say "i want to write a story about something," but rather i suddenly have an image or a scene and then in writing it down a story emerges from it. i guess i follow the stephen king logic of the story as fossil: it's all there, buried in your subconscious, and you just have to dig around it carefully in order to extricate it.

eventually i have a skeleton, but it's not an outline since i don't do complicated plots (although i take structure and pacing seriously) ... it's more of a selection of dialogue or bits of action and description that i know i'm going to use later.

then i flesh it out. so i guess i write like how i imagine a painter does. first by sketching just some rough shapes, and then gradually letting the details accrue. i have a story, in fact, that's done except for a wee bit in the middle. which i just can't bring myself to write, for some reason.

for me, what makes this useful it that i feel like i can jump in at any point, which is good since i have lots of problems with writer's block, so i can just start sketching in wherever seems less terrifying at that particular moment.

i also think that i am the only writer in the fandom who hates to write "scenes." you know: people talk, pause, pick up things, put them down, respond, etc.! i take pacing very, very seriously and it doesn't come naturally to me ... i'd much rather write straight action or description. so rather than write each scene and then link them up, i go back over and over and over again, adding in more bits each time and trying to get the rhythm right.

and then finally at the end, of course, there are all the macro questions about consistency that i think every writer has to deal with, regardless of how she writers.

***

gosh, i don't know if this is interesting to anyone but me, but i'm glad you brought up the topic, because i am dreadfully intimidated by people who appear to just sit down and produce effortless prose linearly. it makes me feel like a Big Phony!

so now i've bared my soul: it's your turn!

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[info]kaiz
2003-08-16 10:47 am UTC (link)
gosh, i don't know if this is interesting to anyone but me, but i'm glad you brought up the topic, because i am dreadfully intimidated by people who appear to just sit down and produce effortless prose linearly. it makes me feel like a Big Phony!

You and me, both! I'm always a bit in awe of those sorts of people--the outliners. And the people who have no idea where a story is going but they just keep writing until it ends. *Boggles*

I really *really* loved your analogy to sketching and painting.

I think that my writing style has possibly been influence by my years writing software and managing projects.

I usually get story ideas as a series of key-frames or milestones. Note, as I'm playing around with the story, some of those key-frames may disappear or reorder themselves. ::g::

Those key-frames are one or more scenes in which something pivotal--either plot-wise or character-wise happens. How I get to each of those key frames is totally up for grabs, but I know that I'll need to hit a certain key-frame at a certain time so all I have to do is just kind of generate a series of scenes or mini-scenes that get me from one frame to another.

Each key-frame has certain requirements, like emotional tone, or setting, or position in a character's arc (very much like a software subroutine has certain input parameters that must be passed into it), so I just have to make sure that certain information is available in the story by the time I enter that frame. That way, the frame is properly motivated and "shaded" with emotional tone.

By the same token, certain information has to leave the frame to be available for the next key-frames down the line, so I have to make sure I either create or pass along that information in the frame that I'm leaving.

So, for me, writing a story is a kind of exercise in information management, presentation, and transformation.

Sometimes, I'll hit a key-frame and realize, "Oh shit, I need to make *that* piece of information available earlier on in the story!" So I'll go back and tweak all the intervening scenes until the information flow is right. Sometimes, I can change the entire tone of the story with just a few tweaks to words here or there. It can go from dark and angsty to happy-happy, joy-joy with just a strategic 10 word change! Adding or subtracting foreshadowing is just as easy.

This strategy makes posting WIPs a nightmare, however. ::g::

Although the key-frames themselves are often in a specific order, I don't write them in order. For instance, I'm working on a story right now and I've already written the last few scenes but damn if I still have a gazillion more in-between frames to write before those scenes seem like an organic end-product of what came before.

Meanwhile, I also get little bursts of inspiration--snippets of dialogue, settings, mental reflections that characters have on various topics--that I write down in the text file in the approximate place where they'd be relevant. Sometimes, those things become key-frames or get incorporated into them. I also keep an "orphan text" zone at the bottom of my document so that little bits of cool turns of phrase or entire paragraphs that don't get used within the key-frame I'd planned don't die...they might get recycled in a later frame

Whenever I get stuck on one frame, I'll just move on to another one. That's always nice, because sometimes, I discover wonderful new shadings and tones to the story that I wouldn't ordinarily find. Or I discover new important key-frames that need to be added. Also, it helps keep me from getting stuck.

In the past year, after getting lots of encouragement/suggestions from people about it, I have experimented extensively with linear writing.

I've gotta say, I suck at it. Experiment is over. I just can't do it. It completely hangs up my writing process/flow and doesn't make for a better story in the end. So, I'm back to random access, thank god! ::g::

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This is salazaar, with her new LJ
[info]spare_change
2003-08-24 03:04 pm UTC (link)
Sorry for the long delay. I have to admit I found your style of writing very intimidating!! Which is so funny, given the theme of this post.

But it makes sense: writing a story is a kind of exercise in information management, presentation, and transformation. To me, this process actually does sound very disciplined and organized, albeit just not in a linear way.

You know, I have found this series of conversations in yours and Luthien's and now Ellen Fremedon's to be so fascinating and inspiring. I would love to start a community around this theme. (Plus, you know, we could think of some filthy name that has to do with RAW. Which is always a good thing.)

Because I think the most important thing -- which such a community could encourage -- is that everyone learn to trust and be confident in their own creative processes. Not to worry about what works for others (for me, for example, the very idea of filling out a personality questionnaire in a specific character's voice is enough to give me writer's block for a couple of weeks ... ouch!), but just to discover what works for you. And then to have faith in it, even when your story has left you utterly baffled and confused.

As an example, I am very perfectionistic and analytical. It's no problem for me to immediately step back from what I'm writing and start talking about the themes of the piece, the motivations of the characters, whatever pretentious thing I am trying to accomplish with the style, etc. But I've learned that I can't let myself do this. Because not only does this critical voice, for which nothing is good enough, intimidate me, but in order to keep the energy of my story and be true to the emotions of the characters (rather than flattening them, which is what for me analysis tends to do), I have to force myself just try to follow the story and the characters blindly, and not think about it too much. It can be amazing how hard this is to do. But once I get in that mindframe, of just accepting whatever the characters throw at you and going with it instinctively, it's amazing how the story literally does just write itself.

Or at least the rough sketch of it. I don't want to tell you how many half-finished WIPs I'm trying to finish right now. And I'm looking at each one, thinking Don't think it, just write it. *bites nails*

Maybe tomorrow. ;)

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[info]kaiz
2003-08-25 07:48 pm UTC (link)
I have to admit I found your style of writing very intimidating!! Which is so funny, given the theme of this post.

Hee! I'm just loving all the different metaphors people are using to describe their processes! I've picked up some good tips from everyone on different random-access approaches...I'm hoping that now I'll have some more strategies to try whenever I get stuck on a section. I'll have to go check out Ellen's page and see what she's said on the topic!

I would love to start a community around this theme.

Sounds like fun! Not sure how to go about it, or what we'd talk about on a continuing basis, but I do like the idea.

Because I think the most important thing -- which such a community could encourage -- is that everyone learn to trust and be confident in their own creative processes. Not to worry about what works for others...but just to discover what works for you.

I agree. I think that part of my problem is that I hadn't found a group of people who had similar styles. I'd try to open up a discussion and inevitably it would end with, "Well, I write in order. Doesn't everyone?" ::g:: So until now, I hadn't stumbled upon enough people who had a similar style to mine for me to even discuss strategies and such. Yay for LJ!

Re. the critical voice

I understand the problem. Usually for me, that annoying little voice doesn't enter the picture until the very end, especially if I've been writing a story for a very long time. Then, it's easy for me to think that it's a horrid piece of dreck, so I usually have to pass it by someone I trust before I release it into the wild. ::g::

Don't think it, just write it.

Isn't that the truth? Sometimes, it can be incredibly difficult to just step out of the way and let the story happen. I find this especially difficult since I've got such an annoyingly analytical way of looking at the story process.

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[info]millefiori
2003-08-15 09:37 pm UTC (link)
Ahh, I'm one of those writers, too.

Why do you do it?

I do it that way because it's really the only way I can write.

What do you like best about doing it?

Well, if there's anything in particular to like about it, I suppose it's being able to run with a scene that's blossomed in my brain, my fingers barely able to keep up with my thoughts as the images spill out onto the screen.

Have you tried the linear style?

Sort of - I once posted a story as a WIP, and so I had to post the chapters linearly, but I still wrote said chapters in a haphazard manner.

What have you noticed are the pitfalls? The perils?

To me, the pitfalls are that I can't start a story and simply work until it's finished, nor can I post anything as a WIP. I can't imagine trying to work with any sort of professional publisher who expects work to be produced in a linear way.

The pleasures?

As I said before, running with the ideas flooding my brain. It's almost like a natural high, struggling to type (or more rarely write) fast enough to keep up with the words. I say words, because I see stories like a movie playing in my brain, but it's more rare that the words fall into place that properly accompany/illuminate/describe the images.

Do you use "place holders" like me, when you can't figure out how you want to say something but you know you've just got to move on in the text?

Oh yes - I'll insert notes to myself to remind me what needs to be covered in a certain section to bridge this bit to that, which allows me to jump on to the next section (and, of course, leaves the drudgery of writing said bridge waiting for me to return to it).

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[info]kaiz
2003-08-16 11:01 am UTC (link)
Well, if there's anything in particular to like about it, I suppose it's being able to run with a scene that's blossomed in my brain, my fingers barely able to keep up with my thoughts as the images spill out onto the screen.

I admit, that's one of the things that I love so very much about it! You can just slam out that scene, snippet without fighting for it. ;-)

To me, the pitfalls are that I can't start a story and simply work until it's finished, nor can I post anything as a WIP. I can't imagine trying to work with any sort of professional publisher who expects work to be produced in a linear way.

I totally agree. I've never tried "publicly" posting something as a WIP. I don't think that I could. I figure that anyone who reads in-progress stuff on my LJ knows that they're gonna get raw footage that is totally subject to change at any time. :-)

(and, of course, leaves the drudgery of writing said bridge waiting for me to return to it).

Amen to that. Transition sections can be bo-oring! I kind of want to do a Picard and say, "Make it so!"

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[info]femmequixotic
2003-08-15 11:39 pm UTC (link)
Oh, my God! I thought I was the only person who did this. *grin*

How cool is it to find out there are other RAWs out there!

Why do you do it?

Er...I think because my brain itself doesn't function linearly at all. My mom's an educator who's done a lot of research into thought processes and learning styles. (Tested me and my sibs constantly *grin*) She tells me that my brain naturally jumps from Point A to Point D to Point B to Point G to Point A again to Point C...and so on and so forth. That's just the way my brain works. I'm unable to process information in the same linear "If a, then b" manner as a lot of people. And that comes out in my method of writing.

What do you like best about doing it?

It keeps things interesting.

I get to write the fun parts first. :)

It helps cut down on writer's block.

Have you tried the linear style?

Yes. It frustrates me to no end and makes me want to just ditch the piece I'm working on.

What have you noticed are the pitfalls? The perils?

WIPs are almost impossible for me to keep up with. I have one WIP that I went ahead and posted despite knowing that I really shouldn't do it. Now it's languishing because I'm having a hard time forcing myself into the linear mindset that is necessary to keep a WIP active.

Another pitfall that I've stumbled across is continuity. Writing in this manner, I have to be doubly conscious of the fact that I'm going back and forth between scenes and I could very well (and have at times) overlook small and large details--everything from a plot point to a minor description. I have to go through every scene with a fine-tooth comb to make sure I'm not missing something that's going to make my reader stop and say---hey, wait a minute, four pages back she said...

Do you use "place holders" like me, when you can't figure out how you want to say something but you know you've just got to move on in the text?

Oh, yes. All the time. I get stuck a lot at beginnings, so I'll stick a few lines in and then move on to write the next scene. Once I've got that done, I usually am able to come back to the first scene and flesh it out.

And I'm forever sticking notes into the text that say thinks like "insert Hagrid scene with Harry here"--even if all I know is that I want a scene that has Hagrid and Harry in it...with no idea of exactly why I want them together or what they're going to say. *grin* I just know that it should be there. And when I go back to put it in..it just flows out. I think my subconscious prods me to put those notes in. It knows that it's working on brewing something underneath the surface and when it's ready to pour it out...it will.

do stories come to you in scenes?

Yes, yes, YES! That's usually how I get an initial story idea...I'll think of a scene or a snippet of dialogue between two characters. And then as I write, more scenes come to me and I fit them into the flow of the plot.

Do you write out those scenes first, then connect them up, so to speak, with other text?

Yes, because I'm afraid I'll forget them. :) So I scribble them down, then go back and pull them all together. It's like putting together a jigsaw puzzle. *grin*

Do you do outlines?

Er...yes and no.

For short fics, never. I have an idea of where I want to go with the fic and I just start trying to take it there. :) For longer ones...yes, of sorts. I do not have a detailed outline like I've seen some people put together. I just can't write that way. But I'll sketch out a very brief idea of what I might want in each chapter--usually three or four sentences max. And any or all of it can change if I insert a scene or a plot point that takes the story in a slightly different direction.

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[info]kaiz
2003-08-16 08:34 pm UTC (link)
Oh, my God! I thought I was the only person who did this. *grin*

No, you are not alone! ::g:: I'm thrilled to see that there are so many of us out here!

And I'm forever sticking notes into the text that say thinks like "insert Hagrid scene with Harry here"--even if all I know is that I want a scene that has Hagrid and Harry in it.

I hear that! Sometimes I'll just 'know' that to balance out the story a scene with a certain tone or set of characters is needed here or there. Sometimes I can even explain why it has to be there. ::veg::

But I'll sketch out a very brief idea of what I might want in each chapter--usually three or four sentences max. And any or all of it can change if I insert a scene or a plot point that takes the story in a slightly different direction.

This sounds very much like what I do with my "key-frames." When they come to me, I'll write down a quit description of what is supposed to happen or a bit of dialogue or what have you to remind myself.



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[info]wikdsushi
2003-08-16 02:40 am UTC (link)
I wish I had the tenacity to do that. Have to leave the good scenes as rewards for getting through the necessary stuff, though, or the necessary stuff never gets done.

No point, only sayin' 'cause I'm too beat to know any better. :)

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[info]wired_lizard
2003-08-16 05:26 am UTC (link)
Oh, so that's how you do it!

*eyes writer of Really Long Fic* Always been curious how you managed all that.

Tho I don't think I'd be able to do that. Sometimes I think RAW keeps me from doing effective work on longer pieces, but sometimes I peg it on my own laziness; but I'm not sure I *could* linear-write a long piece, not unless it was a complete rewrite.

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*waves hand*
[info]wired_lizard
2003-08-16 05:20 am UTC (link)
Long-time (and long-winded) RAW here.

Why do you do it?
Because, in most cases, it's the easiest way for me to write. Most stories don't come to me in one great lump, and I rarely have the energy to start an idea from the beginning and try to make everything make sense as I go along rather than after I write the key bits. Also, my inspiration tends to be fleeting--so if I don't get down the crucial scene in Chapter 12 right now it might be gone forever. [This can be very fun when said scene comes to me when I'm half-asleep at three in the morning. -.-] Basically, it's the way the story comes, and I almost never try to argue with the initial impulse of a story.

What do you like best about doing it?
From a practical standpoint, bunny-rescuing, as I mentioned above. They can be evanescent little creatures; I can never trust that if I tell myself 'I'll write that scene later as a treat,' it'll still be there to write. And I can never be happy with a scene after I lose that initial spark. Then I'm riding on my hack muse, which can be useful for long [novel-length] pieces, but which I don't like to use. (And maybe I should get back into the habit. Mrr.)

Have you tried the linear style?
Yes. Mostly on very short pieces, but there have been a few longer (twenty-thirty pages) ones that I did almost exclusively linearly, and I'm contemplating forcing myself to rewrite my novel that way but've never worked up the guts. The linear style can be a grand high, if you have a bunny that flows well enough for you to just keep writing, but it rarely happens for me.

What have you noticed are the pitfalls? The perils?
Assembly. That's what always gets to me; that's what takes me so long with LoS and several other shorter pieces that are very much RAW. I'll find myself in a situation where I have %90 of the text for a chapter, but little bits need to be written, and little bits need to be rewritten, and for some reason that's a pain in the ass. I write in scenes, sometimes incomplete scenes (I'll come in in the middle of conversation, where the idea starts, and hope I can lead in later, or I'll leave off in the middle of a sex scene if I lose steam), and especially with a long piece with lots of fragments like LoS, I'll read those scenes over, casually, seeing what's there, over and over and over. I become accustomed to them as scenes, and have trouble knitting them into throughwritten text. But that's only part of it; part of it is just laziness. Filling holes, little holes in the text, even a paragraph needed to stitch scenes together, is one of the dang hardest things to do, and I'm not entirely sure why.

The pleasures?
Being able to sit down, jump in to the middle of a scene, and just write whatever is on your mind. Or start a scene somewhere in the middle of a piece with only a vague kernel of an idea, a sense of what so-and-so must be experiencing at the time, and have it grow and become solid and perhaps even alter the flow or plot. (RAW writing is, to me, very flexible. Like a string with bricks hanging off of it that you can switch and shift around, and wiggle the string, before you come along and mortar up chapter such-and-such so you can post it.)

Do you use "place holders" like me, when you can't figure out how you want to say something but you know you've just got to move on in the text?
I'll leave myself notes at the beginning of a scene, mainly for context, like [Moody; sitting on top of a naked Riddle. Lucky lad.], but I'll rarely leave notes at the end. I'll inherently know where the scene is going, and that's something I tend to have a very good memory for--I can remember that for years. Once or twice I'll leave a joking note at the end of the scene, or in a hole, you know, [insert kinky sex here], just because it amuses me. If there's a chapter break after a scene, I'll indicate that. But no major written-out placeholders; it's all in my head.

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*hand gets tired and falls down*
[info]wired_lizard
2003-08-16 05:23 am UTC (link)
As a final note and another statistic: I only outline really long pieces--novel-length. Anything shorter than that, anything that plans to be less than 200 pages or more of finished text, I never wind up outlining. It's simple enough that I can remember it all; particularly because I always make good effort to keep my fragments in chronological order. And the only things I've written exceedingly complex outlines for are an old crossover fic I was co-writing with a friend and my novel (which has a very twisty plot). When I go overboard, I write each scene out on a flash card, and mark with colored markers which character is where (each character gets their own color), and spread them out on the dining room table, and baffle parents.

And yes, it wouldn't fit in the last comment. *blushes*

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[info]kaiz
2003-08-16 08:52 pm UTC (link)
Anything shorter than that, anything that plans to be less than 200 pages or more of finished text, I never wind up outlining.

Wow! Can you tell up front approximately how long a story is going to be? That's something that has proven elusive to me. Part of it might be that the writing software I use doesn't count things in 'pages' so I don't have any sense of how many pages long a story is. I know how large the file is, but not the number of pages or the number of words.

But the other problem is that I often underestimate how much text I'll need to connect up my key-frames. So a "What If?" question that I think will be quick ends up taking a *lot* of text to answer. If that makes sense.

If I'm writing with someone, then yes, I too use outlines but I've never tried to outline something very very long. Key-frame it, yes, but outline no, haven't tried that.

The flash card thing sounds really interesting though! I've heard people talk about using it, but I never could figure out how to get it to work. ::g::

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[info]kaiz
2003-08-16 08:46 pm UTC (link)
Most stories don't come to me in one great lump, and I rarely have the energy to start an idea from the beginning and try to make everything make sense as I go along rather than after I write the key bits.

Amen to that!!! I'm always impressed with people who know exactly what is going to happen in a story and all they have to do is write it down. For me the actually writing part is easy, it's the "what needs to get written" part that's difficult.

From a practical standpoint, bunny-rescuing, as I mentioned above. They can be evanescent little creatures; I can never trust that if I tell myself 'I'll write that scene later as a treat,' it'll still be there to write.

I find that the same is true for me. When I get the idea, I really need to slam it out as quickly as possible otherwise, I might lose it! Or in particular, I might lose some nuance that I really wanted for that particular scene.

Filling holes, little holes in the text, even a paragraph needed to stitch scenes together, is one of the dang hardest things to do, and I'm not entirely sure why.

Gah, with me, it's transitions. Those pesky annoying paragraphs or scenes or sentences needed to get from one place to another. I think that for me part of the problem is that I find them boring and yet also critically important--if you screw them up, you can screw up the pacing of the whole story! Boring-Yet-Vitally-Important is like the kiss of death for me in any endeavor (i.e. doing my taxes).

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Re: *waves hand*
[info]auctasinistra
2004-09-17 09:29 am UTC (link)
Once or twice I'll leave a joking note at the end of the scene, or in a hole, you know, [insert kinky sex here],

Hee hee. My abbreviation is ISSH (insert sex scene here)

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Re: *waves hand*
[info]kaiz
2004-09-17 08:52 pm UTC (link)
Hee hee. My abbreviation is ISSH (insert sex scene here)

LOL! I'm glad I'm not the only one. :-)

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[info]luthien
2003-08-16 07:11 am UTC (link)
Sorry, I got caught up in doing an archive update earlier. I'll leave you a proper comments in the morning.

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[info]kaylarudbek
2003-08-16 06:06 pm UTC (link)
Another Random Access Writer here. And I thought I was the only one with a non-linear Muse!

How I've been coping with it: general outline, write out the scenes I get inspired with, then sit down, grit my teeth, write out the connectors, call my friend and talk through the scenes with her, write out some more...

And I think I will friend you for this alone: I saw your name in the 50 non-friends meme.

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[info]kaiz
2003-08-16 08:56 pm UTC (link)
Welcome Kayla!

How I've been coping with it: general outline, write out the scenes I get inspired with, then sit down, grit my teeth, write out the connectors, call my friend and talk through the scenes with her, write out some more...

I'm so with you on the gritting the teeth thing over the connectors! ::g:: And AIM and IRC and telephones are such the wonderful tools for hashing out scenes and ideas, aren't they? It's so much easier than via email.

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[info]hidez
2003-08-16 11:23 pm UTC (link)
okay - throwing in my two bits (inflation and all)

i really don't know where i fit in - i don't plan on being linear - i don't do the detailed outlines, but i get a basic idea what i want when i start a story, but 9 times out of 10, the final story is completely different than what i originally plan.

thinking back to stories i've written, the best ones were ones where i just sat down and started writing with no actual goals in mind. like with model - all i had was the pictures of aj with the camera, and just simply started writing a story to those pictures. with the methos/angel story, i had a list to write a story around - there was no rhyme or reason to the story, but i think it turned out well. we won't even mention the life of it's own that supermodels took - that was not supposed to be an epic story told in 3 sections.

it's probably from you and your encouragement that i've gotten to the point that if a scene is in my head, i should just sit down and write it and do whatever with it later.

so, raw who just happens to often be linear?

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[info]kaiz
2003-08-18 08:07 pm UTC (link)
so, raw who just happens to often be linear?

Hey, hybridization is a good thing! A good robust strategy. ::g:: I was always amazed at how good you were with those timed writing exercises! I'd written like 2 sentences and you'd written an entire tome!

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[info]executrix
2003-08-17 09:10 am UTC (link)
Not only do I write random-access fanfic (Blakes7, a bit of Jossverse) but what I do for a living is random-access *nonfiction.* I've been doing it for years--I call it "layering" (I just grab one case, article, or something I'm supposed to be writing about, say something about it, then grab something else which falls into place as either closer to the beginning of the piece or closer to the end than the last thing...)
Even the most linear of writers agree that the Introduction is generally the last thing written, because you don't know what you're going to say until you've SAID it.

I should point out that I write short fiction (usually about 5000 words)and I'm not huge with the plot, so I don't need as much structure as someone embroiled in an epic. I usually write in bunny order--the most compelling scenes first (with occasional detours to write down the worst jokes so I won't forget them--the house is full of slips of paper with mummified punchlines). So some of the scenes get revised 25 times, but the last stuff to go in (usually the sex scenes) gets sent out as first or second draft when I just can't stand not to have the damn thing finished.

As to why I do it...it overcomes the anxiety of the blank screen, and the anxiety of worrying about where to begin. Thank God for the computer, it gives you permission to begin ANYWHERE and then move things.

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[info]kaiz
2003-08-18 07:54 pm UTC (link)
I, too, do the random access non-fiction trick! Have done it for ages, in fact.

It really helps me to shape the "outline" of the paper. I discovered that I'd get insights about the topic that simply didn't belong in the section that theoretically I should have been working on. Pretty quickly, I started just roaming around and saying things until the flow gelled properly. Then it was just a matter of organizing the chunks into the order that gave the most impact to the article!

mummified punchlines

LOL! I really love that phrase!

As to why I do it...it overcomes the anxiety of the blank screen, and the anxiety of worrying about where to begin. Thank God for the computer, it gives you permission to begin ANYWHERE and then move things.

I very much agree. Despite what many educators claim--that computers encourage poor writing habits--my writing has improved dramatically since the advent of the word processor (I'm old enough to have learned to type on a manual typewriter, oi!). Being able to easily jump to whatever section of text that inspires me has been a great boon. I'm far more productive, for one thing and I revise almost constantly. The notion of slamming out a draft is almost foreign to me. Once I've completed a draft of anything, it's been edited about a zillion times.

BTW, who is that gentleman in your icon? I'm guessing it's a Blakes7 character?

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[info]executrix
2003-08-18 08:41 pm UTC (link)
Replying to
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Replying to <lj-user="kaiz">
1. Yup, I too am a manual typewriter veteran. I don't think my writing has deteriorated since the great Move to Computer (I was a very late adopter) but tell you one thing, my TYPING has gone to hell.
2. The icon is indeed a Blakes7 personage. OhhhhAvon... </wibble>
3. It's not always easy to determine what the "beginning" of a story is anyway, if one is determined to write in order--it's very common to decide that some things can be deleted, or that more background is needed. And I often start a story at a moment of drama and then resolve some of the WTF Factor by flashing back--in fact sometimes I start with a scene labeled 2, followed by one labeled 1.
4. Let's not forget the "gusher vs. trickler" divide either--people who write a lot and edit a lot versus those who have worked out a fairly finished work in their heads before they hit the keyboard, typewriter, yellow pad, etc. I'm a random-access trickler, which I suspect is rarer than being a random-access gusher.

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[info]zionsstarfish
2003-08-24 04:51 pm UTC (link)
Being able to easily jump to whatever section of text that inspires me has been a great boon.

I agree! Especially with longer stories, I'll have written the end weeks (sometimes months) before I write the very first line of the story. It drives my beta insane ;)

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RAW writers and those of us who just don't understand...
[info]saraid
2003-08-17 12:34 pm UTC (link)
i've known people who do this and wondered...

i write long stories - sometimes very long (which brings up the question of what's long?, but that's the subject of another post) -- and there's no way i could do this. even though i use the card method for laying out storylines [that's where you write each important scene on an index card, shuffle them, then lay them out so each scene happens when it needs to happen - especially important when writing plot-based fic. can't have the guys finding a clue before the crime's even happend] i still write each scene in order. if i didn't - i would never write the hard stuff. if i wrote the fun scene, i wouldn't have much incentive to go back and do the transitions. just like, if i wrote the end, my head would think the story was finished and i'd be unable to convinve myself otherwise.

i guess i reward myself with the fun scenes by making myself earn them - by writing the other stuff.

how often do the raw writers abandon a story because the fun stuff has been written and they aren't motivated to go back and do the not-so-fun stuff?

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[info]kaiz
2003-08-20 06:14 pm UTC (link)
i guess i reward myself with the fun scenes by making myself earn them - by writing the other stuff.

Speaking only for myself here...I don't really divide a story into fun scenes (or in my case, fun key-frames) and unfun ones. Instead, there are simply parts of the story--can be dialogue, setting, action sequence, whatever--that I initially see more clearly than other parts. It's as if some parts of the story are more "in focus" for me than other parts.

Usually, I see these key frames most clearly because they are very significant--either emotionally, plot-wise, or in some other way--to the overall theme/tone/plot of the story.

Sometimes, the most clear segments aren't at all "easy" to write out and there's no guarantee that, because say an action sequence in one story was easy to write out, that another action sequence in this new story I'm working on will be just as easy. By easy, I mean that the words flow more smoothly. It completely depends on the story. Sometimes, key-frames are actually *more* difficult for me to write because so much of the plot or tone or theme of the story hinges on my getting them "just so."

So, I guess that the idea of a story having fun or unfun parts doesn't really translate for me.

how often do the raw writers abandon a story because the fun stuff has been written and they aren't motivated to go back and do the not-so-fun stuff?

I've never abandoned a story for that reason. Almost uniformly, the reason that I've abandoned stories is due to the fact that I started writing without a clear idea of what I wanted to say. For me, I can not "roam around looking for the plot." Every writing course I've ever taken has insisted that that's the way to go, but never once have I been able to find a plot just by writing until it showed up. These days, if I'm just itching to write something but have no idea what to write, I'll do a drabble or a vigniette. But since I'm not one of those writers who feels a compulsion to write, that "itch" doesn't happen very often.

I've once abandoned a story I plotted out in its entirety *because* I plotted it completely out. I finished the outline and was like, "Okay, that's over. No need to bother to write it all out."

The only other times I've left work unfinished was because I'd left the fandom and simply did not care about the characters or their problems any more.

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[info]jacquez
2003-08-18 09:04 am UTC (link)
I write linearly (mostly), when I write stories under about 2000 words.

Anything longer than that, and I start skipping around - The Sorcerer's Apprentice goes so long between updates now because I'm not writing it mostly-linearly anymore. I have parts of all the years written, including about half of the second year, but none of it is all smoothed out and connected and makes sense - last night I moved a big chunk of Chapter Two to Chapter Six of Year Two, for example, and inserted notes like [need time marker here] and [write bridge scene with the opening here] all through Chapters 2, 3, 5, and 6. Then I tweaked the last chapter of Year Five a bit.

Everything of mine that's been long--except the first long story--has had that sort of thing going on in it. I'm not sure where I picked it up, but it works for me and all the stories that use it are better than that first one: more coherent, better foreshadowed, tighter.

One thing I really like is that I don't drop major plot threads and fail to notice, because I'm always skipping around to later places that require the thread. On the other hand, it's harder to maintain continuity in other areas, and to avoid repeating myself - when I change something in an early chapter, I then have to go through everything else and realign my ducks.

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[info]kaiz
2003-08-25 07:54 pm UTC (link)
Everything of mine that's been long--except the first long story--has had that sort of thing going on in it. I'm not sure where I picked it up, but it works for me and all the stories that use it are better than that first one: more coherent, better foreshadowed, tighter.

I agree with you that I find coherence and foreshadowing much easier to accomplish when I skip around the text than when I try to write straight through from beginning to end. And as you mention, I've also found it more easy to handle multiple plot threads by skipping around...I guess I'm just saying a big old "Me too!" to your entire post here. ::g::

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[info]sparrohawk
2003-08-23 08:55 pm UTC (link)
How serendipitous! I have been thinking muchly about this topic myself, recently. For most of my life, I have been a linear writer. This was a state I actively maintained, by ruthlessly cutting off any thoughts that led away from the chronological progression of my stories.

It's only very recently (i.e. since starting to write HP fan fiction) that I have stopped this silliness.

I'm so happy that I did, and I am pleased to count myself among the RAW writers. My stories are vastly improved when I go ahead and write the bits that are alive and juicy in the moment, and string them together later.

I usually have a general idea of where I am and where I want to go in a story. The specifics of how I get there may be outlined or just left to chance. I almost always start by writing the first scene, but after that, the progression often breaks down. Right now I'm working on a longish Snape/Lupin and have dozens of little scenelets gleaned from just about every planned scene in the story. They'll all have to be fleshed out and woven together.

Part of the reason for this is the fact that I wrote most of the scenelets while on a road trip, just letting my mind wander and taking note of where it went.

The story is not yet finished, so we'll have to wait to see how effective the process was in this case!

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[info]kaiz
2003-08-25 08:02 pm UTC (link)
It's only very recently (i.e. since starting to write HP fan fiction) that I have stopped this silliness.

Yay! ::g:: My one-year experiment in linearity is over, too, thank you very much!

Part of the reason for this is the fact that I wrote most of the scenelets while on a road trip, just letting my mind wander and taking note of where it went.

I do a lot of my plotting when I'm working out, so I can relate. I enter some kind of odd mental state where my brain just roams around creating scenes. Sometimes, they're even worth saving! ::g::

The story is not yet finished, so we'll have to wait to see how effective the process was in this case!

I look forward to reading the results!

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[info]atdelphi
2003-08-23 08:56 pm UTC (link)
I've always been ashamed of my inability to think in a straight line, let alone my inability to write in one. The only stories I've ever been able to complete from point A to point B are 100-word drabbles, and even those require several re-writes to keep the word limit balanced.

I suppose I've ended up writing this way because stories very rarely occur to me as a concept. Rather, they usually begin as a snippet of dialogue, or a brief excerpt from one character's thoughts regarding another. My stories usually only attain a theme, or a continuous thread of imagery once it's nearly complete and in the "stitching together" stage where I go through and tie everything together.

The upshot of writing in this style, for me, is the fact that I actually get some writing done. I have a tendency to stall in difficult passages, and to absolutely agonize over my opening paragraphs. If I wrote in a straight line, most of my stories would never get past the first few words. It also allows me to work on the story no matter what my mood - smut comes very easily to me (insert whatever jokes you'd like,) so if I have writer's block, I can work on the sex scene, or if it's rated G, just a sensual description of the setting that gets the juices flowing. The creative juices, I mean.

I have tried the linear style, particularly in instances where I have a very strong theme that I've wanted to ensure is developed clearly - however, that was a failed experiment. I found my style deteriorating as I tried to force myself through the difficult spots, and eventually had to give in and go write an island of unrelated dialogue before I lost my mind.

The pitfalls of writing this way, in my experience, is that once I get all the scenes that are dear to me out of the way, I worry that my writing is noticeably flatter in the paragraphs that bridge them together. However, particularly in shorter stories, adding a recurring image or change in sentence structure usually buys me out of this one.

And anyhow, this pitfall is more than made up for by the fact that I can exorcise the scenes as soon as they pop into my head; and oftentimes, scenes I put into one story that later turn out not to fit often inspire new stories of their own. I find that inspiration strikes at odd moments, and if I don't write it down immediately, I tend to forget.

Thus, "place holders" are the norm for me as well, and most of them are either incomprehensible or embarassing, or both. I leave huge spaces in the document, with a little note in parantheses, such as: (insert oral sex - then Aq reaching for the door - S comments on cruelty, "Sublime" - something about the desert from before?)

The above is lifted from one of my works-in-progress, and is one of the many reasons I hope nobody searches my harddrive after my death.

Anyhow, I supsect I'm beginning to blather (as us non-linear thinkers tend to do.) Thank you very much for posting this, as I'm always fascinated by others' approaches to writing. It's good to know I'm not the only one :)

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[info]kaiz
2003-08-25 08:35 pm UTC (link)
The upshot of writing in this style, for me, is the fact that I actually get some writing done. I have a tendency to stall in difficult passages, and to absolutely agonize over my opening paragraphs. If I wrote in a straight line, most of my stories would never get past the first few words. It also allows me to work on the story no matter what my mood...

This, by far, is one of the things that I like best about writing this way. I know that a lot of people have to "be in the mood to write" but for me, I'm always in the mood to write *something*--it might just be 3/4 of the way into the story rather than 1/4 of the way, which is where theoretically I "should" be writing. ::g::

And anyhow, this pitfall is more than made up for by the fact that I can exorcise the scenes as soon as they pop into my head; and oftentimes, scenes I put into one story that later turn out not to fit often inspire new stories of their own. I find that inspiration strikes at odd moments, and if I don't write it down immediately, I tend to forget.

Yes! Exactly. I do find that, if I can slam out the snippet as soon as it occurs to me I'm better off all around as the idea tends to...drift a bit and I never get it back quite the way I'd imagined it.

Anyhow, I supsect I'm beginning to blather (as us non-linear thinkers tend to do.) Thank you very much for posting this, as I'm always fascinated by others' approaches to writing. It's good to know I'm not the only one :)

Rambling is most welcome in my LJ anytime, especially when it's *good* and *insightful* rambling. ::g:: Welcome to Club RAW!


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[info]bluemoon02
2003-08-24 03:08 am UTC (link)
I never used to be an RAW...I went right through T&T (my first completed chaptered fic) writing everything in order...I also ended up with six month's worth of writers block in the middle of it, but we won't go into that...However, I didn't think things in the right order...In my head, the end was going on before the middle....But I persevered writing as you're 'supposed' to write...

Now I'm onto what will hopefully be my second completed chaptered fic....And I forced the first chapter...Then though....'It really doesn't want to come out that way....Why don't you just write it as it comes'....So I've been scribbling little scenes in my notebook, frowning and changing them round, working out time lines and dates...And yesterday...About a week before I'd planned to write it...The second chapter came to me, clear as crystal...So I wrote it!....I'm really finding this much better....It's not at all forced, like you can see some of the chapters in my previous work were...It flows a lot more easily...And when I come to later in the story, there'll be a lot less work to do!

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[info]kaiz
2003-08-25 08:47 pm UTC (link)
The second chapter came to me, clear as crystal...So I wrote it!....I'm really finding this much better....

Excellent! It feels so good when you don't have to force the story to happen.

And when I come to later in the story, there'll be a lot less work to do!

I certainly like that aspect of writing this way. When you've written a big chunk of stuff and you're closing in on it knowing that you've already solved that problem...it's a nice feeling. ::g::

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[info]zionsstarfish
2003-08-24 04:42 pm UTC (link)
*flies in from [info]spare_change's journal*

LOL, this is so me as well.

Why do you do it?
* I haven't a clue. If I could stop, or if there were drugs that would help me stop, I think I would! LOL.

What do you like best about doing it?
* It lets me write my favorite scenes first. The ending, or the reunion, or the fight scene, or the crying scene. It's all there in my head and sometimes I just want to write it without having done any of the lead-up first. It's like having dessert before the string beans.

Have you tried the linear style?
* Yes. It's painful and I wonder why I can't do it ;)

What have you noticed are the pitfalls? The perils? The pleasures?
* Pitfalls: putting everything together is *hard*. Linking bits is like creative torture. I know they have to get from point A to point C via point B, but I have no idea what point B is or what it looks like.
* Perils: having tons and tons of stuff written for a story, and having to dump much of it because none of it works with the 'outline'.
* Pleasures: being able to write my favorite scenes first. All dessert, no waiting ;)

Do you use "place holders" like me, when you can't figure out how you want to say something but you know you've just got to move on in the text?
* Yeah. Once I wrote, "the big fight" and moved on to the resolution. LOL.

Random Access Writers? I like that. It sounds much better than my own label for it: 'writing like a crazy person'.

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[info]yourpoison
2003-09-06 08:40 pm UTC (link)
hee! i haven't thought of it as dessert since it's the only thing i -can- it. i mean, if some boring scene infringes itself upon my head, i have to write -that-, too. unless i -wait- and then it might never come to me again :-/

i totally thought i was alone, and that i wrote like a crazy person and that i had some sort of "issue" that i just couldn't seem to help-- and this is all much worse because it often means i can't -finish- the stuff i start. sigh. not conducive to discipline, this whole dessert-first approach ><

i shouldn't be surprised, of course. so many writers out there, even if we were 3% of the population, we were bound to notice there was at least 1 other person like that eventually~:)

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[info]yourpoison
2003-09-06 08:35 pm UTC (link)
hee! i've never met anyone who wrote non-linearly before either, actually. man, i dunno what it is. we're such freaks :D
i love it >:D

Why do you do it?
well, you know, because i can't seem to do it any other way. just natural, that's all. why would i -want- to do it this way? wah. completely unpredictable and time-consuming and you know how people always ask "how long is this going to -take-" about -everything- and i just can't -tell- them because, well. i don't know -.-

What do you like best about doing it?
i like the feeling of "eureka!!", and finally getting something just -come- to me, and the way things just solve themselves and the way it all just falls together like -magic- after i have the crucial ingredient drop in my lap and decide to tell me to write it. like, suddenly it's -easy- and before there was -nothing-. it's fun to suddenly see the light, over and over again~:)

Have you tried the linear style?
er.....
well..... it's not like this is a -choice-. i'm trying to think of a fic i wrote completely linearly, and i'm blanking out, but i'm sure there's -something-, a really short one, probably, or one that just came all in one go, like -boom-, but then i didn't plan that, that was all one bite. i dunno if that's linear so much as all condensed into one point. usually i just hop, skip and jump without meaning to, just kind of -happens-.

What have you noticed are the pitfalls? The perils?
well, a lot of things just-- don't get done. in fact, i'm deathly impressed with myself whenever something -does- get done. because there's no predicting whether the next bit will come within the next few days or within the next month and sometimes it comes within a year or two. -.-
also... if the inspiration passes, but i still know what i should have written (plot-wise) it's really hard to get myself to -force- the writing, just write what i know happened even though it's not just beating me over the head. it's a discipline that gets lax because it's all so unpredictable so discipline seems almost silly, but it's not, and that's a hard lesson to learn.

The pleasures?

it's always so -easy-, and feels so -good-, being the conduit, seeing things take shape, never getting bored with your own story because it's always surprising you. the pleasure of finding out what happened, the pleasure of creating without regurgitating, it's all so -flowy- and natural and it feels like writing is breathing instead of work. of course, the work does enter into it, but it's still like you're always in the process of falling in love rather than out of it, because there's always that sense of mystery.

Do you use "place holders" like me, when you can't figure out how you want to say something but you know you've just got to move on in the text?

wow, definitely!
although actually, i hadn't started doing that until just with my last fic, which is my first serious chaptered fic, so i can't hold all the little scenes in my head anymore. but i had begun to leave little notes in the text itself to come back to, with as much info-dumping as i'd had happen by this point. not too much, 'cause if i know too much i don't want to write it as much. actually, i know i -could- write it if i really force myself to brainstorm, but i mean, it's always better and smoother if it comes to me, always surprising me with plot-twists and emotional things.

man, rambled too much. stopping now ><;;

~reena

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Dropping in via my own LJ *g*
[info]auctasinistra
2004-09-17 09:26 am UTC (link)
Now, I know most writers don't write this way.

Hm...maybe it's just the people we know, but most of the writers I know (original fic writers, mostly,rather than fanficcers) do write this way. I do too. :)

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Re: Dropping in via my own LJ *g*
[info]kaiz
2004-09-17 09:35 am UTC (link)
Welcome! :-)

Hm...maybe it's just the people we know, but most of the writers I know (original fic writers, mostly,rather than fanficcers) do write this way. I do too. :)

Really?! Very cool!

See, in all the fandoms I've been in, I kept encountering people who did the linear thing. And this whole notion of writing things out of order was baffling to them, if not downright sacreligious! ;-) And hoo boy, did I get lots of pressure about RAW not being the "proper" way to write.

And it's been the case that, in all the professional fiction writing classes I've attended (and been universally disappointed with them, but that's another story!) the teachers have reinforced this linear, start at the beginning, end at the end, heavy on the outlining, sort of thing.

So yeah, it could well just be the company I've been keeping! I'd like to think so, because I'd sooo like to get more help/suggestions about writing that took this RAW thing into account. Most of the advice I'd get from people heavily emphasized the linear approach. I was thrilled that so many people replied to this post because I got some great new ideas about how to work with my style rather than against it. :-)

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